Gay Priests?

[Messenger]

www.nytimes.com/2005/11/23/internat.../23vatican.html

In Strong Terms, Rome Is to Ban Gays as Priests

By IAN FISHER and LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: November 23, 2005

ROME, Nov. 22 - A new Vatican document excludes from the priesthood most gay men, with few exceptions, banning in strong and specific language candidates "who are actively homosexual, have deep-seated homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called 'gay culture.' "

The long-awaited document, which has leaked out in sections over the last few months, was published Tuesday in Italian by an Italian Catholic Web site, AdistaOnline.it.

The document appears to allow ordination only for candidates who experienced "transitory" homosexual tendencies that were "clearly overcome" at least three years before ordination as a deacon, the last step before priesthood. It does not define "overcome." Several critics worried that that language would make it nearly impossible for men who believe their basic orientation is gay - but who are celibate - to become priests.

The anticipation of the document has divided Catholics, especially in the United States, igniting contentious debate over whether this is an appropriate response to the recent sex scandals and whether celibate gay men can still be good priests.

The document puts the onus on bishops, seminary directors and the spiritual advisers "to evaluate all of the qualities of the personality and assure that the candidate does not have sexual disorders that are incompatible with priesthood."

A candidate, in turn, would have to be honest about his sexuality.

"It would be gravely dishonest for a candidate to hide his own homosexuality, regardless of everything, to arrive at ordination," the document states. "Such an inauthentic attitude does not correspond to the spirit of truth, loyalty and availability that must characterize the personality of one who considers himself called to serve Christ."

Vatican spokesmen refused to comment Tuesday, saying the document would be published on Nov. 29.

But an Italian reporter, Andrea Tornielli, a Vatican specialist for Il Giornale who saw the entire document two weeks ago, said the Adista document matched the one he saw. An anonymous church official was quoted by The Associated Press as saying the document, a short five pages with footnotes, was genuine.

While church documents as early as 1961 banned homosexuals from the priesthood, conservative Catholics complain that the ban has often been ignored. Some liberals say the priesthood has been enriched, and amplified in numbers, by gay celibate men.

Thus many conservatives called the document a necessary correction, saying the number of gay men in seminaries has deterred heterosexual men from applying.

"I don't think it's anything new or different from the church's constant teaching, but it's new in the sense that the teaching has been widely disregarded in seminaries," said the Rev. Joseph Fessio, editor of Ignatius Press, which published many of Pope Benedict XVI's books before he was elected last April.

The document draws a clear line at banning active gays, and what many experts said was a less clear one banning candidates with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies," while leaving the term undefined. Generally, it says, homosexuals "find themselves in a situation that seriously obstructs them from properly relating to men and women."

"It's a clear statement by the Vatican that gay men are not welcome in seminaries and religious orders," said the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author of "In Good Company: the Fast Track from the Corporate World to Poverty, Chastity and Obedience" (Rowman & Littlefield, 2000).

"It raises the bar so high that it would be difficult to imagine gay men feeling encouraged to pursue a life in the priesthood," he added. "It's a very stringent set of rules they're applying. Really the only people that would be able to enter, according to the document, would be people who had a fleeting homosexual attraction."

Francis DiBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry, which advocates the inclusion of gays in the Catholic Church, said, "It seems that its intent is really to keep homosexuality quiet, to silence gay priests and gay seminarians." Such secrecy, he said, will make it even harder to find candidates who are well adjusted and sexually mature.

But the Rev. Mark Francis, superior general of the Clerics of Saint Viator, a religious order based in Rome, said the document appeared to allow the leeway to ordain a candidate who believed he was gay but also believed he could be celibate.

"You could say, 'I believe I am gay, but that the tendencies toward being gay are not deep-seated,' " he said. "What constitutes deep-seated homosexual tendencies?" he said. "How does one judge that?"

Critics complain that by discouraging gay men from applying, it will alter the makeup of the priesthood, and possibly reduce its numbers at a time of an already acute shortage. Supporters maintain, however, that the priesthood needs to change, though Father Fessio said he worried whether that would actually happen.

"It depends on whether it's implemented or not," he said. "Will it be obeyed? I don't know. I've read a lot of documents in the past that weren't."

The document is marked as signed on Nov. 4 by Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski, prefect for the Congregation for Catholic Education, the Vatican department that oversees seminaries. It says that on Aug. 31, Benedict "approved the instruction and ordered its publication."

While the document has been in the works for years, begun under Pope John Paul II, its release marks one of the most significant acts in Benedict's seven months as pope.

A doctrinal conservative who served as John Paul's defender of the faith for two decades, he spoke out before his election against "filth" in the church, which many observers speculated was a reference to the need to clean up the church after the scandals involving sexually abusive priests.

Some critics both in and out of the church have accused the Vatican of using gay priests as a scapegoat for that scandal, a charge the church has vigorously denied. Experts have noted that is incorrect to equate pedophilia with homosexuality.

The document concerns only candidates for the priesthood, not already ordained priests. But in anticipation of the document's release, a handful of priests have publicly declared their homosexuality, and a few bishops and leaders of religious orders have spoken out in defense of their gay priests.

The president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Bishop William S. Skylstad of Spokane, Wash., wrote in his diocesan newspaper in October: "There are many wonderful and excellent priests in the church who have a gay orientation, are chaste and celibate, and are very effective ministers of the Gospel. Witch hunts and gay bashing have no place in the Church."

Bishop Matthew H. Clark, of Rochester, addressing any "gay young men who are considering a vocation to priesthood," wrote: "We try to treat all inquiries fairly. You will be no exception."

Ian Fisher reported from Rome for this article, and Laurie Goodstein from New York.

Let's look at this article:

The document appears to allow ordination only for candidates who experienced "transitory" homosexual tendencies that were "clearly overcome" at least three years before ordination as a deacon, the last step before priesthood. It does not define "overcome."

(How did these people "overcome" their homosexual feelings? By their OWN power, which means NOTHING in God's sight, or have they been truley BORN AGAIN & forgiven, by the power of the Holy Spirit, & ONLY the Holy Spirit?

1 John 5:4 (New International Version)
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.)

Several critics worried that that language would make it nearly impossible for men who believe their basic orientation is gay - but who are celibate - to become priests.

(Wait a minute here! AARRGGHH! If you're celibate, how do you know that you are "gay?")

The anticipation of the document has divided Catholics, especially in the United States, igniting contentious debate over whether this is an appropriate response to the recent sex scandals and whether celibate gay men can still be good priests.

(Again, I ask: How can you be celibate AND gay? There's an oxymoron if I ever heard one!)

.............whether celibate gay men can still be good priests.

(Matthew 6:24 (New International Version)

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Since when does this verse JUST apply to money? It's ALL or NOTHING when a person chooses to follow Christ! PERIOD!)

The anticipation of the document has divided Catholics, especially in the United States, igniting contentious debate over whether this is an appropriate response to the recent sex scandals and whether celibate gay men can still be good priests.

(Romans 3:23-24 (New International Version)

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

("Good" gay priests? Read verse 23 again.)

A candidate, in turn, would have to be honest about his sexuality.

(Agreed, BUT- they had better read THIS VERSE TOO:

1 Samuel 16:7 (New International Version)

7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

They CAN't hide the truth from GOD!)

While church documents as early as 1961 banned homosexuals from the priesthood, conservative Catholics complain that the ban has often been ignored. Some liberals say the priesthood has been enriched, and amplified in numbers, by gay celibate men.

("Celibate" gays?

John 3:19 (New International Version)


19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. The darkness talked about here is SIN!

Here it is folks-THIS IS GOD'S WORD HERE:

Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

I don't need say anything more about homosexuality being a sin!)

The document draws a clear line at banning active gays, and what many experts said was a less clear one banning candidates with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies," while leaving the term undefined. Generally, it says, homosexuals "find themselves in a situation that seriously obstructs them from properly relating to men and women."

(If its homosexual, IT'S A SIN-PERIOD!)

The document concerns only candidates for the priesthood, not already ordained priests. But in anticipation of the document's release, a handful of priests have publicly declared their homosexuality, and a few bishops and leaders of religious orders have spoken out in defense of their gay priests.

(Matthew 6:24 (New International Version)

24"No one can serve two masters. It's ALL or NOTHING when a person chooses to follow Christ! PERIOD!)

The president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Bishop William S. Skylstad of Spokane, Wash., wrote in his diocesan newspaper in October: "There are many wonderful and excellent priests in the church who have a gay orientation, are chaste and celibate, and are very effective ministers of the Gospel. Witch hunts and gay bashing have no place in the Church."

(Matthew 6:24 (New International Version)

24"No one can serve two masters.)

The president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Bishop William S. Skylstad of Spokane, Wash., wrote in his diocesan newspaper in October: "There are many wonderful and excellent priests in the church who have a gay orientation, are chaste and celibate..............

(ChaSTE & celibate gays? NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE! RTB)

............Witch hunts and gay bashing have no place in the Church."

(If they KNEW their Scripture, they would know, THAT THIS IS not "GAY-BASHING", BUT SIMPLY God's Word!!)

Bishop Matthew H. Clark, of Rochester, addressing any "gay young men who are considering a vocation to priesthood," wrote: "We try to treat all inquiries fairly. You will be no exception."

(You're darn right, Bishop Clark! But who is the Catholic Church going to make an exception for-The Catholic Chuch or GOD'S WORD? That is the question the Catholic Church MUST ask it's self!

Bill

[Philly Morgana]

if some one wish's to be gay and there feelings are gay. then let them be

why force some one to surpress who they are to follow outdated rules.

[relativestranger]

again u r confusing being celibate and gay(which is possible u sanctimonious..) and being actively gay (which IS a sin, as i so recently discovered as it is plain to see in leviticus) If these priests are celibate then they haven't commited a sin. And isn't God all knowing and forgiving anyway. If He didn't want someone to be a priest surely they wouldn't be a priest(by the way you think not the way i think) so who are you to question this

[Andy]

Gay priests? Theres a contradiction, if your gonna be a prest your ment to go by Gods word, how can they preach if they dont practice it.

[relativestranger]

andy said:

Gay priests? Theres a contradiction, if your gonna be a prest your ment to go by Gods word, how can they preach if they dont practice it.

They do practice it by being celibate! It is surely only a sin to lie with men i believe the line is. any priest that gievs up physical pleasures is celibate regardless of whether they are giving up the opposite or the same sex. again, people need to open their minds ever so slightly rather then condeming everyone different to them which is what you seem to be doing. and yes that is an opinion, im not pushing it as fact

[rsf]

ROME, Nov. 22 - A new Vatican document excludes from the priesthood most gay men, with few exceptions, banning in strong and specific language candidates "who are actively homosexual, have deep-seated homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called 'gay culture.' "

"Actively homosexual" disqualifies a person immediately from preaching. The bible states:
1 Timothy 3

1. It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3. not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5. (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6. and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7. And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8. Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
9. but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
10. These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
11. Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
12. Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.
13. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

The Catholic church however, insists ALL of their priests be celibate. Not just the gay ones.

"have deep-seated homosexual tendencies" means they are double minded, and therfore unfit for the service of teaching, leading, counciling etc.

"or support the so-called 'gay culture" The bible clearly states it is wrong, and supporting homosexual lifestyles is going against the very word of God.

All that being said, a sin is a sin. A gay person is no worse than a liar, or a thief. It is no worse to be gay, than to slander, gossip, or hate. We ALL fall short of the glory of God and deserve death. But homosexuals need to repent of that sin, just as people who don't have that sin, need to repent of the sins they DO have as well.

God's word clearly states what a Bishop, Deacon, preacher, Preist must be though. It's too bad people think they know better than God. It's His book and yet humanity still does whatever they want.

Judges 17:6. In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

[relativestranger]

All that being said, a sin is a sin. A gay person is no worse than a liar, or a thief. It is no worse to be gay, than to slander, gossip, or hate. We ALL fall short of the glory of God and deserve death. But homosexuals need to repent of that sin, just as people who don't have that sin, need to repent of the sins they DO have as well.



i agree with this bit, surely being celibate is in a way denying and repenting ur feelings of homosexuality

[Betty]

You are so very right. God does not see sin as humans do. Anything that falls short of His rightesness is sin. We all need to repent and we all need forgiveness. I am thankful that He sent a way to pay my debt and allow my forgiveness.

[relativestranger]

admin said:

You are so very right. God does not see sin as humans do. Anything that falls short of His rightesness is sin. We all need to repent and we all need forgiveness. I am thankful that He sent a way to pay my debt and allow my forgiveness.

hmmm and if He had not?

lonely in heaven, i'm sure that must be a song by now, if not i shall have to write it

[rsf]

If He had not, our lives would be pointless. He'd still has Jesus and the angels to keep Him company. Thanks to Him, we have a way of being there too

[relativestranger]

rsf said:

If He had not, our lives would be pointless. He'd still has Jesus and the angels to keep Him company. Thanks to Him, we have a way of being there too

imagine that, forever with just your family and servants, would be fun:P

[rsf]

LOL!

[solitarysoul]

I don't mean to be blunt lol , but I've always thought this issue has a very simply answer ... gay priests must not have their focus on God and the higher purpose if they do not make it a priority in their lives to at least strive out of a desire to please God to change the way they are. So why would others want to be taught by those who are still focused on the world?

[relativestranger]

solitarysoul said:

I don't mean to be blunt lol , but I've always thought this issue has a very simply answer ... gay priests must not have their focus on God and the higher purpose if they do not make it a priority in their lives to at least strive out of a desire to please God to change the way they are. So why would others want to be taught by those who are still focused on the world?

NO!!

again totally missing the point here, they are NOT displeasing God by being gay AND celibate. why is that that most of you see gay to mean practising homosexual!

gay CELIBATE priests are focused on pleasing God, they have denied themselves earthly pleasures as it would displease Him.

Doesn't God preach understanding and compassion and why is there so little evidence of this against priests on here (apologies rsf)

SO not just bluint, but not thinking of BIG picture, too many prejudices still evident there

[solitarysoul]

relativestranger said:

solitarysoul said:

I don't mean to be blunt lol , but I've always thought this issue has a very simply answer ... gay priests must not have their focus on God and the higher purpose if they do not make it a priority in their lives to at least strive out of a desire to please God to change the way they are. So why would others want to be taught by those who are still focused on the world?

NO!!

again totally missing the point here, they are NOT displeasing God by being gay AND celibate. why is that that most of you see gay to mean practising homosexual!

gay CELIBATE priests are focused on pleasing God, they have denied themselves earthly pleasures as it would displease Him.

Doesn't God preach understanding and compassion and why is there so little evidence of this against priests on here (apologies rsf)

SO not just bluint, but not thinking of BIG picture, too many prejudices still evident there

No, it does not matter if they practice homosexuality or not. The Bible says that thoughts are just as serious. It doesn't matter if you never touch another human being in your life ... if you are attracted to someone of the same sex, it is just as bad. And if you disagree I'll start pulling Bible verses to back me up. A part of being a child of God is a real desire to strive to be like His Son Jesus. If priests are willing to accept the fact that they are gay and they are not striving to try to change their ways to be like Jesus, then they are NOT pleasing God. They may think they are, but God is not just whoever you want Him to be in your mind. God is real, with a real character. If what we do is not in line with the Bible, it is not pleasing God. So if gay priests are not willing to at least try their hardest to turn away from being gay, they are not following Christ.

[relativestranger]

solitarysoul said:

relativestranger said:

NO!!

again totally missing the point here, they are NOT displeasing God by being gay AND celibate. why is that that most of you see gay to mean practising homosexual!

gay CELIBATE priests are focused on pleasing God, they have denied themselves earthly pleasures as it would displease Him.

Doesn't God preach understanding and compassion and why is there so little evidence of this against priests on here (apologies rsf)

SO not just bluint, but not thinking of BIG picture, too many prejudices still evident there

No, it does not matter if they practice homosexuality or not. The Bible says that thoughts are just as serious. It doesn't matter if you never touch another human being in your life ... if you are attracted to someone of the same sex, it is just as bad. And if you disagree I'll start pulling Bible verses to back me up. A part of being a child of God is a real desire to strive to be like His Son Jesus. If priests are willing to accept the fact that they are gay and they are not striving to try to change their ways to be like Jesus, then they are NOT pleasing God. They may think they are, but God is not just whoever you want Him to be in your mind. God is real, with a real character. If what we do is not in line with the Bible, it is not pleasing God. So if gay priests are not willing to at least try their hardest to turn away from being gay, they are not following Christ.

That is the most pompous arrogant thing i have ever read and i am british. If that is how you believe God is then i struggle to see how you can support such a narrow minded view. If you give it a second thought you will see that it is natural, and everything natural is given by God, and giving up something IS striving to be like God and Jesus, if they are being celibate then they ARE turning away from being gay, casting out the flesh and overpowering it with the mind.

[relativestranger]

and oh no not bible verses , which if u dont have msn means rolls eyes

[rsf]

Priests are called to be celibate, no matter what. If you are a priest, and married ONLY to the work of God, then you are doing what you are supposed to do. If a man had feelings of lust toward another man, or men, and becomes aware of his sin and repents, he can be a priest. Priests aren't even supposed to lust after women.

Repenting means to agree with God that what you are doing, or thinking is wrong. Becoming celibate for them, is turning away from the sin of being gay, and thus pleasing to God.

Some people after they have had time away from their gay lifestyle, can actually find that they are attracted to the opposite sex. And because of that, they can lead a totally heterosexual lifestyle that is pleasing to God. Some however cannot find that attraction. But for them, being celibate is perfectly acceptable.

When we repent of ANY sin, we will always have the potential to be drawn back to it through our own lust or desires. It doesn't matter if that sin is being gay, stealing, lying, gossip or anything else. All sins are equal in the eyes of God, with the exception of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. If we are guilty of only one part of the law, we are guilty of the entire law. But we just need to remember that God loved us, and forgave us, and not go back to it.

Watching gay porn, drooling over somebody and wishing you could have them, may be celibate, but it sure isn't repenting.

[relativestranger]

rsf said:

Priests are called to be celibate, no matter what. If you are a priest, and married ONLY to the work of God, then you are doing what you are supposed to do. If a man had feelings of lust toward another man, or men, and becomes aware of his sin and repents, he can be a priest. Priests aren't even supposed to lust after women.

Repenting means to agree with God that what you are doing, or thinking is wrong. Becoming celibate for them, is turning away from the sin of being gay, and thus pleasing to God.

Some people after they have had time away from their gay lifestyle, can actually find that they are attracted to the opposite sex. And because of that, they can lead a totally heterosexual lifestyle that is pleasing to God. Some however cannot find that attraction. But for them, being celibate is perfectly acceptable.

When we repent of ANY sin, we will always have the potential to be drawn back to it through our own lust or desires. It doesn't matter if that sin is being gay, stealing, lying, gossip or anything else. All sins are equal in the eyes of God, with the exception of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. If we are guilty of only one part of the law, we are guilty of the entire law. But we just need to remember that God loved us, and forgave us, and not go back to it.

Watching gay porn, drooling over somebody and wishing you could have them, may be celibate, but it sure isn't repenting.

i totally agree with this entire sentiment, if a priest watches porn(gay or not) then they are going agaisnt god for me. tbh i am hoping that this is what 99% of the people on here think, as to be a member here should mean that you believe in God's teachings and that includes forgiving tresspassers as thephrase goes

[solitarysoul]

Relativestranger, please settle down, we are not attacking you and I apologize if you feel offended by what I say. The truth is though that the Bible does say that thoughts are just as bad as the actual act. That is not my opinion, it is what Jesus taught.

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error." - Romans 1:26-27

But notice also that Jesus said by simply looking at someone with lust, you have commited adultry:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. - Matthew 5:27

It mentions woman yes, but it is also said that homosexuality is wrong, and that having desire alone toward someone of the same sex is lust. So simply by seeing someone of the same sex in an attractive manner, the Bible says it defiles who you are. It is sin.