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Post by relativestranger on Mar 11, 2007 19:51:56 GMT -5
The Bible doesn't assume there is one way to live, you can live however you want. But what the Bible is saying is that there is only one way to inherit Heaven, by accepting the sacrifice Jesus made which bridged the gap between man and God, and WHEN someone accepts that sacrifice, that changes their life, and they desire out of love for God to live by the Bible. dont be pedantic |
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Post by relativestranger on Mar 11, 2007 19:56:26 GMT -5
a piece of information, hell was invented by christians, so all this stuff you're spouting is actually nonsensical as jesus would never have suggested that people wouldnt get into heaven as to Him everyone would
more tho the point in the debate, if there is only one way to interpret the bible and anyone that interprets it wrong is not getting into heaven (as you suggest) why do you assume YOU have interpreted it correctly, are you not fallible?
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Post by solitarysoul on Mar 12, 2007 16:43:07 GMT -5
#1, you obviously havn't studied this as well as you claim, and #2, you're completely ignoring my points and just looking for something to fight about. If you want to have a sensable logical debate, I'm welcome to continue to answer any questions you have, but I'm not going to respond to posts like that when I've already given you the answer a dozen times.
Jesus talked about hell twice as much as He did about Heaven. Christians did not "invent" hell.
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Post by relativestranger on Mar 15, 2007 20:55:20 GMT -5
#1, you obviously havn't studied this as well as you claim, and #2, you're completely ignoring my points and just looking for something to fight about. If you want to have a sensable logical debate, I'm welcome to continue to answer any questions you have, but I'm not going to respond to posts like that when I've already given you the answer a dozen times. Jesus talked about hell twice as much as He did about Heaven. Christians did not "invent" hell. uve deleted my post saying uve deleted my post...very mature |
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Post by relativestranger on Mar 15, 2007 21:30:23 GMT -5
#1, you obviously havn't studied this as well as you claim, and #2, you're completely ignoring my points and just looking for something to fight about. If you want to have a sensable logical debate, I'm welcome to continue to answer any questions you have, but I'm not going to respond to posts like that when I've already given you the answer a dozen times. Jesus talked about hell twice as much as He did about Heaven. Christians did not "invent" hell. you keep saying im ignoring ur posts and loking to fight so i read back over the whole thing, this seemed like quite a good debate until the pedantic comment made. firstly ot but Western society is a term now used to mean all that you mentioned however was invented by an american newspaper to mean america and canada as they are 'in the west' and was later changed to include europe, it s not widely accepted outside of the united states and can be considered un pc jesus didnt talk about hell he talked about purgatory which was slightly different, in fact some christians(my grandma assures me it is greek orthodox) believe jesus allowed himself to go to purgatory, i have been searching for this verse as i really wanted it for another conversation however so far it is hard going as i have to get somone else to translate as i dont speak greek. back to the main point for me, if you are correct and the bible is an instruction guide with only one interpretation, why is it you belive your interpretation is valid, are you not fallible and wont to err this has been copied so if deleted again can be reposted..thank you |
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Post by solitarysoul on Mar 16, 2007 18:55:54 GMT -5
For a more 'politically correct' term try looking up western culture. Western Culture map - upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/Westerncultures_map.png"Western culture or Western civilization is a term used to refer to the cultures of the people of European origin and their descendants. It comprises the broad heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs (such as religious beliefs) and specific artifacts and technologies as shared within the Western sphere of influence." - Wikipedia's definition When people talk about western society, it is this culture that is being refered to. The majority being North America, Europe, and Australia. In contrast to the rest of the world, this is where you find most first world contries, and also most locations that are straying away from traditional and moral values into a more materialistic and entertainment focused world. You've got it backwards here because it actually began in Europe. America today now has the major influence, with the media and hollywood and all, but in comparison to the rest of the world, America and Europe are very similar when it comes to this culture that is now focusing on a materialistic and entertainment world. It's not hard to see. In one of many locations I have been to across the UK for example, the most recent city there that I've visited is London which is ironically (ironic to your claims) the biggest example I've experienced personally. In all my life of living in America and traveling across the country (though I admit I have not been into Manhatten or LA yet and I know they are some of the biggies), with all due respect to London because I loved my trip there lol, I have yet to see a single other place that is falling into a more materialistic and entertainment lifestyle. But regardless, America is where the majority of this is you are right about that. My point in bringing this up though is because western society, which has given in to such materialism and media, is easily decieved and has fallen away from the true meaning of the Bible, because so many people choose to believe what they hear over what may be the truth, because they don't care to get into it deeply themselves and find out if it is true or not, they are just happy with what they hear. And my point is, while that may be fine by man's standards for this life, that will be no excuse for those who do end up in hell afterward. If you havn't watched the video in this thread yet which was the whole point of me creating this thread, that explains it a bit more. Ooooh my, I could really be here all night quoting scripture to this lol. Sorry but that is not correct at all, and I challange you to post any verses that you think support that view. Jesus not once talked about purgatory, because there isn't a purgatory. Jesus very well did in fact talk about Hell much more often than Heaven. I know my Bible  . It is refered to with several different names throughout the Bible (Sheol, Hades, Gahenna, Hell, eternal flame, fire and brimstone, etc.). With a very quick search I came up with 32 instances, all spoken by Jesus Himself, in the New Testament alone, and that is just a start. Here are a few examples, but before you disagree with what these verses are talking about, you need to take into account the context in which they are written in, and actually study what is being talked about here. Also you need to keep in mind the language and form in which they talked in this time period. Greek and Hebrew are very different from English in the way that there are so many ways to express emotion in these ancient languages that we can't do in English. Also, during this time and in these languages when people wanted to get an important point across, they would sometimes repeat themselves with different wordings, and they would use parables and metaphors. These languages were much more expressive, and that is why if you don't read verses in context and study the passages in depth, it is very easy to misinterpret what is actually being said. Anyway, here's a few examples (both OT and NT): " And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." - (Matt. 3:12) " And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." - (Rev. 14:9-11) " But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord... 33So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly." - (Num. 16:30 & 33) " The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - (Matt. 13:41-42) " but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - (Matt. 8:12) (*Again like I mentioned before, notice the repetition ... "weeping and gnashing of teeth", just like in Matt. 13) " whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." - (Matt. 5:22) (This should be enough proof to indicate that it requires accepting Jesus into your heart as your personal Savior in order to escape this. Who in the world is innocent of saying "You fool" or something of the like?) " And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell." - (Matt. 18:8-9) " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - (Matt. 25:46) " Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." - (Jude 7) " And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - (Rev. 20:15) " I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." - (Rev. 1:18) " And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." - (Matt. 11:23) " And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell." - (Luke 10:15) " And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - (Matt. 16:18) " And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." - (Luke 16:23) " You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these (people) that bear witness of Me," (John 5:39). I don't think "instruction guide" is the right term. That's implying more that Christianity is about rules and regulations, but that isn't true. It's about an actual relationship with Jesus Christ, similar to a personal relationship you would have with a friend or family member. For example, you don't know someone personally by simply knowing about them, but by knowing them personally. Like Paul Washer says in the video I posted as the whole point of this thread, you're not going to get into the White House by walking up to the front gate and telling people that you know George Bush. You may know everything there is to know about George Bush (in comparison, someone could know everything there is to know about the Bible or religion), but that's not going to get you into the White House (just like knowing facts about the Bible or Christianity isn't going to get you into Heaven). But if you know George Bush personally, then he'd greet you by name and invite you into the White House. In the same way, even though God knows everything about us, if we do not know Christ, as in having a personal relationship with Him, then we don't get in. The Bible speaks of a "regeneration" within us. A "rebirth". That's what it means to be "born again". We aren't Christians simply by stating so, or even by believing in Jesus and what He taught. What makes us Christians isn't trying to follow a rigid set of rules, it is about a relationship with Jesus. Some might say, "well then that means I can be a Christian and not have to follow these 'rules'". But that also is not the case. This "instruction" and "rules" isn't a guide for how to become a Christian, it is an explaination of who Christ is and therefore who we become when we *know Christ and are reborn in Him. The word "regeneration" literally means that a person has actually changed on the inside. When someone first realizes and honestly believes that we are all sinners living in a fallen world and therefore cannot reach salvation on our own, and then believes that Jesus Christ died for our sins, that person then becomes a Christian when they honestly trust in the sacrifice that Jesus made for the forgiveness of our sins, and then the Holy Spirit comes in and works within that person. It doesn't seem anymore like "rules" or "instructions" because once someone honestly believes and trusts in this sacrifice, therefore understanding what an increadible act of love it is, they naturally desire to be like Christ ... they experience a change from the inside ... they want to go to Church, they want to be honest, they want to be good, they want to love others, they want to forgive others, etc. They don't go to Church, work to be honest, trustworthy, forgiving, loving, good, etc. in order to be a Christian ... which would be looking at the Bible as a set of rules or instruction guide to life ... instead, because of their genuine faith and realization in how big of an act of love that was, they experience the Holy Spirit within them and naturally they just desire to be like Christ. The Bible doesn't give us rules, instead, those "rules" and "instructions" are more of an example of who someone becomes when they truly accept Christ into their hearts, therefore becoming a Christian. Years ago I honestly didn't give a hoot about the Bible lol. But once I realized what this really meant, and gave my life over to Christ, truly believing and trusting in that sacrifice, the Holy Spirit entered my heart and my passion for Jesus just exploded ... as you may be able to tell by all the time and devotion I put into my mile long posts (lol) and the fact that I run a website commited to Christ, have commited by life to Christ, write devotions and read the Bible 1+ hours a day. I don't do these things because I feel like I have to in order to be a Christian. I do these things because now that I have been reborn into a new person and become a Christian, I literally truly desire to do these things, in the same way that you might desire to give and devote yourself to a spouce or someone you love. Being a Christian means that you experience a real personal relationship with the real loving God, and have experienced a complete change on the inside. A change of heart, a change of character, a change of lifestyle, and a change in the way you think. But more to the point of your question, think about this for a minute. Do books or news articles have more than one interpretation? While people may of course interpret certain facts or peices of a story in different ways, the story or article itself has a central meaning, whether it be talking about the life of a person, the history of a country, reporting a murder or car accident, telling the story of a Hamlet's last days of his life, etc. Furthermore, the Bible is without error, for it even states so and states that it is inspired by God. If there were error in the Bible, by it's very own claim, the Bible would be false. Also, I have copies of the Bible in their original languages (not actual original copies themselves of course, but they are not translated) which I study and compare along with the English copies we have today. I also do research on the Greek and Hebrew languages and specific words, one of which I'll explain below in just a second (check the * by the word "know" above), to learn more about their actual meaning and how they were used in those languages. Through studying that you can better understand what the actual writers were meaning to say. * = If you've ever noticed when reading the Bible, when it talks about parents concieving a child, it doesn't use the word sex or anything like that, it says something like "he knew her". This is translated from the Greek word "ginōskō", which is a very emotional word that in English literally translates to "knew", which is used in the Bible to describe concieving a child. It is a very intimate word. But there are two very common translations to the word "know" in the Bible. One of the more common ones is "yâda‛", which is used when saying something like, "I know that" or "I know you" or "you should know that" etc. But in Matthew 7:23 for example, it says, "I never knew you, depart from me". In the Greek Bible, this word is not "yâda‛", but "ginōskō". In other words, what Jesus is saying is that "knowing" God is not simply a matter of knowing about Him, or even knowing who He is necessarily. It is a matter of an actual intimate relationship with Him. So as you see, sometimes you have to look deep to find out what is really being said ... and that is what ministers and authors do, they know what they're talking about lol . There is not "many interpretations" of this. Clearly Jesus meant a particular thing when He said it. He said He was the truth after all, and therefore there can only be one true meaning to what He was saying. To interpret this in a different way may seem all fine and dandy to some people, but biblically speaking, it is not correct, because it is not what Jesus actually said, as is evident by a closer look into the actual language and meaning of the words. |
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