What is the purpose of genuflexion?

[Messenger]

First, let's take a look at what catholics believe about this:

www.newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm

I have read through this, & in general, there are no Scriptural difficulties:

UNTIL THIS:

All genuflect (bending both knees) when adoring the Blessed Sacrament unveiled, as at Expositions.
All genuflect (bending the right knee only) when doing reverence to the Blessed Sacrament, enclosed in the Tabernacle, or lying upon the corporal during the Mass. Mass-servers are not to genuflect, save when the Blessed Sacrament is at the altar where Mass is being said (cf. Wapelhorst, infra). The same honour is paid to a relic of the True Cross when exposed for public veneration.
The clergy in liturgical functions genuflect on one knee to the cross over the high altar, and likewise in passing before the bishop of the diocese when he presides at a ceremony. From these genuflexions, however, an officiating priest, as also all prelates, canons, etc., are dispensed, bowing of the head and shoulders being substituted for the genuflexion.
On Good Friday, after the ceremony of the Adoration of the Cross, and until Holy Saturday, all, clergy and laity alike, genuflect in passing before the unveiled cross upon the high altar.

Ok, now I see SEVERAL problems here.

First this:

All genuflect (bending both knees) when adoring the Blessed Sacrament unveiled, as at Expositions.

ADORING AN object?

Does ANYONE want to try telling me, that the Catholics aren't calling an the "host" something that needs to be worshipped?

Aren't they turning this into an idol?

And what does Scripture say about idol worship?

Exodus 20:4 (New International Version)

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.


Now, catholics say that the ACTUAL presence of Christ resides in the "host."

I would LOVE to know what is their SCRIPTURAL basis is for this?

I also take a look at this subject here:


Click here!


They are turning the "host" into an object to be worshipped! Isn't this turning it into an idol?

Then we have this:
(And look at what I have underlined)

All genuflect (bending the right knee only) when doing reverence to the Blessed Sacrament, enclosed in the Tabernacle, or lying upon the corporal during the Mass. Mass-servers are not to genuflect, save when the Blessed Sacrament is at the altar where Mass is being said (cf. Wapelhorst, infra). The same honour is paid to a relic of the True Cross when exposed for public veneration.

A RELIC?
AN OBJECT?

As pointed out above:

Since when is an object supposed to be worshipped?

Is there ANYTHING in Scripture that CONDONES idol worship?

Does ANYONE want to tell me, that this isn't EXACTLY what the ancient hebrews did with the Golden Calf?

Exodus 32:8 (New International Version)

8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'

Is there ANY DOUBT that the catholic church is condoning idol worship here?

And what did God do to the ancient hebrews because of worshipping an idol?

Exodus 32:25-27 (New International Version)

25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "

What was the penalty for idol worship?

DEATH!

And look at what happened here:

1 Kings 18:40 (New International Version)

40 Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

Over & over, what is the penalty for idol worship, according to God's word? DEATH!

Now, needless to say, we won't see catholics getting slaughtered like the idolatrious hebrews, or the prophets of Baal.

But what is the key word in BOTH thses passages-DEATH!

Following these practices of idol worship, will only end up in spiritual destruction in the Lake of Fire, as mentioned in:

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Notice what I have underlined, in the passage above !

Idolaters!

Just like the catholic church is turning their followers into!

And because the catholic church teaches that THEY are the ONLY "TRUE" church!

And then the catholic church says this:

The clergy in liturgical functions genuflect on one knee to the cross over the high altar, and likewise in passing before the bishop of the diocese when he presides at a ceremony. From these genuflexions, however, an officiating priest, as also all prelates, canons, etc., are dispensed, bowing of the head and shoulders being substituted for the genuflexion.

Bowing of the head & genuflexion to PEOPLE? Am I reading this right?

I think that Scripture has something to say about this:

Romans 3:9-11 (New International Version)

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

And we have this:

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have adressed this issue in my article on the pope, which can be found here:

Click Here!

Again:

The "host" is regarded as an IDOL!

The clergy is regarded as more than regular men! Almost as gods, themselves!

And them we have this:

On Good Friday, after the ceremony of the Adoration of the Cross, and until Holy Saturday, all, clergy and laity alike, genuflect in passing before the unveiled cross upon the high altar

What am I reading here?

ADORING an object?
Kneling before an OBJECT?

How can anyone say that this ISN'T idol worship?
Do I have to say anything more?

Bill

[laurelouise]

Well, there's actually much more to say. I guess I can start at the top of your post and work my way down:

1) You claim Catholics practice idol worship by bowing to the Blessed Sacrament. Let me ask you this, what would you do if you were standing in front of Jesus? You'd bow, correct? I certainly hope so, I know I would. Well, that's what Catholics are doing when they bow to the Blessed Sacrament. They are bowing to the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

2) The word adore can have many meanings. I adore my children. I adore my cat. I adore my new haircut. When we adore something, it means we are showing it love and respect. Have you ever heard the song "The Old Rugged Cross"? There's a line there that goes, "And I love that old cross...". "Love means to Adore. It is okay to adore the cross of Jesus. When I visited Rome, I stood before a piece of the cross of Jesus. To know that was the wood upon which He had bleed and suffered for my soul was too much for me. Yes, I adored that cross because His blood was spilled on it. I see nothing wrong with bowing in respect to the cross of Jesus. It is hardly worship. It's respect.

3) Yes, you are reading correctly that people bow to other people. Once again, this is not worship. You say, "Yes, it is." I say, "No, it's not". Since I'm the one doing the bowing, shouldn't I be the one to decide whether I'm doing it out of respect or with an attitude of worship? Why do you insist we are worshipping something when we aren't?

To wrap it up: No, Catholics do not engage in idol worship. We do not worship idols. If that were part of our doctrine, why would we want to hide it? We don't keep any of our other practices secret? Why would we do that one? We don't worship idols. We show respect for certain things that are associated with Jesus' life, but Jesus is the only one worthy of or receiving worship of any kind by a member of the Catholic Church.

Thank you.

[Messenger]

Hi Laurel:

Lets take a look at what you have said here:

You claim Catholics practice idol worship by bowing to the Blessed Sacrament. Let me ask you this, what would you do if you were standing in front of Jesus? You'd bow, correct? I certainly hope so, I know I would. Well, that's what Catholics are doing when they bow to the Blessed Sacrament. They are bowing to the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Did that wafer die for you, or did Jesus?

Yes I would bow down to Jesus, if He were standing right in front of me. But where is your scriptural basis for that wafer being the actual body of Christ? I suggest you take a look at my exploration on transubstantiation here:

xathrus.proboards41.com/index.cgi?board=communion&action=display&thread=1203566130

Now we have this:

The word adore can have many meanings. I adore my children. I adore my cat. I adore my new haircut. When we adore something, it means we are showing it love and respect. Have you ever heard the song "The Old Rugged Cross"? There's a line there that goes, "And I love that old cross...". "Love means to Adore. It is okay to adore the cross of Jesus. When I visited Rome, I stood before a piece of the cross of Jesus. To know that was the wood upon which He had bleed and suffered for my soul was too much for me. Yes, I adored that cross because His blood was spilled on it. I see nothing wrong with bowing in respect to the cross of Jesus. It is hardly worship. It's respect.

Was it the cross that provided salvation, or was it Jesus?

That is what is at issue here. The cross was just 2 pieces of wood-nothing more. It is what HAPPENED UPON THAT CROSS, that makes all the difference. What is more important-the cross, or what Jesus did for all of us ON it? It's one or the other-there is no middle ground here. Either you worship Jesus, or you worship 2 pieces of wood. That sounds an awful lot like paganism to me.

Then we have this:

Yes, you are reading correctly that people bow to other people. Once again, this is not worship. You say, "Yes, it is." I say, "No, it's not". Since I'm the one doing the bowing, shouldn't I be the one to decide whether I'm doing it out of respect or with an attitude of worship? Why do you insist we are worshipping something when we aren't?

Respect?

Scripture says this:

Romans 3:9-11 (New International Version)

No One is Righteous
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

Scripture says NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS! (That means EVERYONE, YOU, ME, PRIESTS, & THE POPE HIMSELF!)

Why show respect to anyone who is not righteous?

The only one who DESERVES TO BE BOWED DOWN TO IS JESUS. Nobody eles is worthy!

NO one else died for our sins but JESUS!

No one can forgive our sins but JESUS!

No one else rose from the dead but JESUS!

No one else sits' at the right hand of the Father but JESUS!

A wafer doesn't provide salvation!

A cross doesn't provide salvation!

Finally, let's look at this.

To wrap it up: No, Catholics do not engage in idol worship. We do not worship idols. If that were part of our doctrine, why would we want to hide it? We don't keep any of our other practices secret? Why would we do that one? We don't worship idols. We show respect for certain things that are associated with Jesus' life, but Jesus is the only one worthy of or receiving worship of any kind by a member of the Catholic Church.

Why do you feel the need for OBJECTS to show respect for Jesus? They are simply objects, that have done NOTHING to assure us of salvation!

Only the person ASSOCIATED with these oblects is worthy of respect-that is CHRIST JESUS, & HIM ALONE.

Everything else is irrelevant

Sorry if i seem so harsh, as that is NOT my intention. But who are you going to believe? What the Bible says, or traditions of man, which don't save ANYONE?

In Christ!
Bill

[catholicdefender]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T. why is this a stumbling block for you? We believe that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus says, this IS my body and blood. Jesus does not say, this is a symbol of my body and blood.

Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19-20 - the Greek phrase is "Touto estin to soma mou." This phraseology means "this is actually" or "this is really" my body and blood.

1 Cor. 11:24 - the same translation is used by Paul - "touto mou estin to soma." The statement is "this is really" my body and blood. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever declare something without making it so.

Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19 - to deny the 2,000 year-old Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, Protestants must argue that Jesus was really saying "this represents (not is) my body and blood." However, Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, had over 30 words for "represent," but Jesus did not use any of them. He used the Aramaic word for "estin" which means "is."

Matt. 26:28; Mark. 14:24; Luke 22:20 - Jesus' use of "poured out" in reference to His blood also emphasizes the reality of its presence.

Exodus 24:8 - Jesus emphasizes the reality of His actual blood being present by using Moses' statement "blood of the covenant."

1 Cor. 10:16 - Paul asks the question, "the cup of blessing and the bread of which we partake, is it not an actual participation in Christ's body and blood?" Is Paul really asking because He, the divinely inspired writer, does not understand? No, of course not. Paul's questions are obviously rhetorical. This IS the actual body and blood. Further, the Greek word "koinonia" describes an actual, not symbolic participation in the body and blood.

1 Cor. 10:18 - in this verse, Paul is saying we are what we eat. We are not partners with a symbol. We are partners of the one actual body.

1 Cor. 11:23 - Paul does not explain what he has actually received directly from Christ, except in the case when he teaches about the Eucharist. Here, Paul emphasizes the importance of the Eucharist by telling us he received directly from Jesus instructions on the Eucharist which is the source and summit of the Christian faith.

1 Cor. 11:27-29 - in these verses, Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord. If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.

1 Cor. 11:30 - this verse alludes to the consequences of receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in mortal sin results in actual physical consequences to our bodies.

1 Cor. 11:27-30 - thus, if we partake of the Eucharist unworthily, we are guilty of literally murdering the body of Christ, and risking physical consequences to our bodies. This is overwhelming evidence for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These are unjust penalties if the Eucharist is just a symbol.

Acts 2:42 - from the Church's inception, apostolic tradition included celebrating the Eucharist (the "breaking of the bread") to fulfill Jesus' command "do this in remembrance of me."

Acts 20:28 - Paul charges the Church elders to "feed" the Church of the Lord, that is, with the flesh and blood of Christ.

Matt. 6:11; Luke 11:3 - in the Our Father, we ask God to give us this day our daily bread, that is the bread of life, Jesus Christ.

Matt. 12:39 – Jesus says no “sign” will be given except the “sign of the prophet Jonah.” While Protestants focus only on the “sign” of the Eucharist, this verse demonstrates that a sign can be followed by the reality (here, Jesus’ resurrection, which is intimately connected to the Eucharist).