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Post by Messenger on Feb 20, 2008 22:49:17 GMT -5
First, let's see what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about Him: www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htmFirst we have this: Now, this doesn't sit right with me., especially when I read this: SUPREME AUTHORITY? Just ONE man? And just HOW does he define what is right from what is wrong? By His OWN judgement, or by the leading of the Holy Spirit? This is a situation where ANY man could easily be corrupted, having this much power! (Just something to think about!) And we have this: Where in the NEW TESTEMENT, does it say ANYTHING about the leadership of the church being transferable OR lasting in perptuity? I can't find it ANYWHERE IN THE NEW TESTEMENT!!!!!! Then we have this: and this: Now, I have a BIG problem with this: The church will be bult on Peter? What does Scripture say here: 1 Corinthians 3:11 (New International Version)
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE, the foundation of everything that Jesus taught, is JESUS HIMSELF! So who is the TRUE foundation of BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY? Jesus or Peter? Now I want to take a look at the OLD TESTEMENT verses listed above. The concept of "church" ISN'T an Old Testement concept! Where in the Old Testement, does it say ANYTHING about a church? Yet, the catholics claim this: Numbers 12:7 (New International Version)
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house.or this: Jeremiah 12:7 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
7 "I will forsake my house, abandon my inheritance; I will give the one I love into the hands of her enemies.or this: Hosea 8:1 (New International Version)
1 "Put the trumpet to your lips! An eagle is over the house of the LORD because the people have broken my covenant and rebelled against my law.or this: Hosea 9:15 (New International Version)
15 "Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.NONE of these are even CLOSE to talking about an EARTHLY congregation! They are ALL metaphors talking about about being in the presence of the Lord! How can the Catholic Church even BEGIN to claim that these verses refer to ANY KIND of an "earthly" congregation? Now we have this: Here we have AGAIN, the term Supreme authority is used. (Continued below!)
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Post by Messenger on Feb 20, 2008 22:50:38 GMT -5
Then we have:
SUPREME POWER? FOR ONE MAN?
Does anyone else feel uncomforatable with this kind of power being delegated to ONE MAN?
The other thing that I see here, is: What kind of a witness for Christ was Peter anyway? Was he a tryant, that he went around leading the other Apostles & Believers, with an "iron fist, saying-I have supreme authority, & supreme power! You had better not question me!
Based on everything that Peter HAS been recorded as saying in the NEW TESTEMENT, I don't see ANY evidence, that Peter used his authority to act like this!
And then we have THIS term-viceregent.
Viceregent? How did catholics come up with THIS word? Did Jesus ever call Peter a "viceregent"? If He did, I would love for someone to show me where it is in the New Testement! 119
And we have this:
To rule in His place?
SINCE WHEN?
For those who are Born Again, this is tanamount to BLASPHEMY!
The Catholic Chuch is putting the pope on an equal level with Jesus!
Don't believe me?
Look at the size of the crowds that gather whereever the pope appears.
Do you thing that they are looking at Jesus?
Do you think that they DON'T se the pope, as kind of a god?
Who are the coming to worship when the pope says mass-the Pope, or Jesus?
What does scripture say about this?
Exodus 20:3 (New International Version)
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Then we see this:
Legestative & judicial authority?
THis is legalism!
I don't see ANYWHERE in the New Testement where Peter was even CONCERNED about anything like this?
Now there are those that will use these verses to show legistative & judicial authority:
Acts 6:1-6 (King James Version)
1And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
I don't see ANY evidence of this. The Apostles were concerned about the most important thing in their lives-WITNESSING! They choose other Believers to take care of the daily operations of the "church", (NOT the CATHOLIC Church, because the word "catholic" is NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE!), but rather, the body of Believers.
Then we have this:
This part especially hits me:
(continued below)
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Post by Messenger on Feb 20, 2008 22:51:51 GMT -5
Rod of Iron?Is THAT how a shepherd treats his sheep? Is THAT how Jesus would want a leader to treat His people? Does ANYONE see this wonderful picture of Jesus, as ruling with a rod of iron? This is in DIRECT contradiction to what we read in Psalm 23 (New International Version)
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want. {Is this an example of ruling with a rod of iron?) 2 He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters, {Is this an example of ruling with a rod of iron?)
3 he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. {Is this an example of ruling with a rod of iron?)
4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. {Is this an example of ruling with a rod of iron?)
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. {Is this an example of ruling with a rod of iron?)
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever. {Is this an example of ruling with a rod of iron?)Then we have Jesus HIMSELF refering to Himself as the Good Shepherd: John 10:11-16 (King James Version)
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.Peter DID lay down His life for his "flock"! How many of the popes since then would have done this? No-they are more concerned with ruling the church with a rod of iron! Then we have this: WHAT??!!!!!!!!!!First of all, where in Scripture, do catholics even get the IDEA that Jesus would give up His PERSONHOOD, to transfer it to Peter? That is LUDICROUS!!!! If Jesus DID do this, Peter would have become God! Then we have this: We looked at this before: 1 Corinthians 3:11 (New International Version)
11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.There is only ONE FOUNDATION STONE-JESUS CHRIST!Then we have this: There is this: Uh, excuse me? WHO is the head of the Chuch? Ephesians 5:23 (New International Version)
23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.And this: Wait a minute! Show me where Jesus said ANYTHING about any SUCCESSORS TO PETER! (Continued below)
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Post by Messenger on Feb 20, 2008 22:52:18 GMT -5
And this: SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT APOSTLESHIP BEING PERMANANT! Now: Let's continue on: First we have this: Where did Jesus say pastor? Then we have this: Where did Jesus say this? The Roman WHAT? ?? Here, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, is what the Roman, (or Holy See) is: Click Here!We have this: A PLace? What make one place anymore "holy" than another? Now, a lot of catholics will say, that it is used for God's work God's Work? Considering everything that we have seen so far has NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS, I would hardly call ANYTHING that the catholic church "does" God's work! Ok-back to the pope! We have this: Again-WHERE in Scripture does it say that the commission that Jesus gave to Peter was transferable? Then, there is this: I find THIS interesting: WordNet adjective established as genuine WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University. Uh-huh. Well, there is this: No, ths is accepted as truth by virtually everyone. But: Show me where in Scripture, Peter was ever a "bishop". And: We have seen this time And again: WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DID JESUS SAY THAT PETER'S LEADERSHIP WAS TRANSFERABLE? Ok. Continuing in this article, we see how, according to the catholic church, papel leadership transfers. You can read this on your own, but you WON'T find ANY SCRIPTURAL BASIS TO SUPPORT WHAT ANY OF THESE PEOPLE SAY!Now we skip ahead to this: You can read all of this at your own leisure. I just want to highlite a few points. AGAIN & AGAIN, we see this: WHO is head of Christ's church? Ephesians 5:23 (New International Version)
23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.It WASN'T PETER! Then we have all this garbage about dispensation, legislative & judicial authority. I think that the catholic Church, is forgetting this verse: Luke 6:37 (New International Version)
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.It the catholic church going to go AGAINST what Jesus COMMANDED, or are they just going to do what THEY want? And then, there is THIS: EXCUSE ME???Forgive sins? THIS IS WHAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED FOR!Luke 5:21-24 (King James Version)
21And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
22But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
23Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
24But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. WHO has the power to forgive sin? Jesus. PERIOD!To say the the pope has the power to forgive sin, is to make the pope GOD, & THAT IS BLASPHEMY!!!!How can the catholic chuch, who claims to be the "one & only true church", say what the Bible CONTRADICTS? ? Then we have this: Perfect? Not in this world. Scripture says right here: Romans 3:9-11 (New International Version)
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.Continuing on: We have this: Obviously, the catholic church, doesn't know this verse: Luke 6:37 (New International Version)
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.This is a COMMAND from Jesus HIMSELF! The catholic church says that they get the "authority" from Jesus. Well than, why don't they follow His commands? We have this: Supreme Judge? We have already seen this: Luke 6:37 (New International Version)
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.WHO is the Supreme Judge? It ISN'T the pope! According to SCRIPTURE HE ISN'T EVEN supposed TO JUDGE! Only JESUS HAS THE right to judge us, because only Jesus is perfect! PERIOD! Now, let's continue with this: I look at all this, & I just have to ask ONE SINGLE QUESTION: Isn't the running of the BIBLICAL CHURCH, (NOT the catholic church, because the word "catholic" isn't even IN the Bible), supposed be the JOB of the Holy Spirit? Especially when we read this in Scripture: John 14:25-27 (New International Version)
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.Yet, do we see ANY mention of the Holy Spirit in the section of the Catholic encyclopedia, above? NO!"Nuff, said." Finally: We see this: What the heck is this? ?? Where in Scripture does it say to do this-let alone to another MAN? There is no SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE OF THE APOSTLES DOING THIS-EVEN TO JESUS HIMSELF! Don't you see what the catholic chuch is doing here? They are WORSHIPPING THIS MAN! THEY ARE DOING THINGS THAT EVEN JESUS HIMSELF NEVER HAD DONE TO HIM!
Do I need to show the Blasphemy, NON-SCRIPTURAL, practices that the catholic church & the pope's practices any clearer than I have here?
THE CATHOLIC CHUCH IS THE BIGGEST CULT IN ALL OF HISTORY!
And how many millions, (& quite probably BILLIONS), of deceived people, have gone to hell, because they believed these NON-SCRIPTURAL, BLASPHEMOUS TEACHINGS?
Bill
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Post by catholicdefender on Aug 28, 2009 19:46:10 GMT -5
Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).
Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.
Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.
Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.
Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.
Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.
Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.
Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.
Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.
Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.
Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.
Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.
Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.
Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."
Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.
Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.
Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.
Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.
Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.
Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.
Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.
John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.
John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.
John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.
John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.
John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.
John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.
John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.
Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.
Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.
Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.
Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.
Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.
Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.
Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.
Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.
Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.
Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.
Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).
Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.
Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.
Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.
Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.
Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."
Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.
1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.
1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.
1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.
1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.
2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.
2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.
Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.
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Post by Messenger on Jan 18, 2010 16:38:55 GMT -5
It is such a joke that the catholic church claim that the "church" that Jesus founded on Peter, when there is absolutly NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for the absurd assumption! The catholic church claims that Christ declared Peter the leader of the "catholic" Church in matthew 16:18. You want to show me where Christ says ".........Upon this rock will I build my "catholic" church? If Jesus had MEANT the "catholic" church, why didn't he SAY "catholic? Especially when even the 3 CATHOLIC Bibles don't say that? www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?i…(Jerusalem Bible) www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__…(New American Bible) www.drbo.org/chapter/47016.htm(Douay-Rheims Bible) Where is the word CATHOLIC in any of these versions? And these are CATHOLIC Bibles! What grounds do catholics have for claiming that this was the founding of the "catholic" church? Especially when the word Catholic isn't even used in conjunction with Matthew 16:18! None of the english Bibles on Bible Gateway, ( www.biblegateway.com/), say "....upon this riok, I will build my "catholic" church either! Then catholics will try to use the arguments that the word "catholic" means "universal". In what version of Scripture does Jesus us the word "universal" in Matthew 16:18? None of the catholic Bibles says UNIVERSAL church either! None of the english language Bibles on Bible Gateway, ( www.biblegateway.com/), says "UNIVERSAL" church either in Matthew 16:18! Nothing here has proven anything, least of all, that the "cathlolic" church is the one that Christ is talking about. Nobody here has proven anything, except that there STILL is NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS that proves that Jesus is talking about the "catholic church"! Every single version of scripture says MY CHURCH in Matthew 16:18- NOT My "universal" Church! NOT my "catholic" Church! Just MY CHURCH! Not my "catholic" church! Period! Then some catholics will use the verse:: Acts 11:26 (New International Version) 26and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. Saying the "Christian" is the same as "catholic" Well, if this was the case, then why weren't they called "catholics" instead of Christians? Nowhere in any of the "catholic" bibles does it say in this verse, that they were called "catholics"! www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=51 (Jerusalem Bible) www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PY5.HTM (New American Bible) www.drbo.org/chapter/51011.htm (Douay-Rheims Bible) Nowhere in any of the english translations on Bible Gateway, (http://www.biblegateway.com/), say "catholic" in Acts 11:26 EITHER! The folllowers of Christ were called CHRISTIANS in Acts 11:26-NOT "catholics"! And look at what one of your fellow catholics says about the catholic church: This is a quote from a staunch catholic: (Newell, to be exact!) "The Catholic Church is a TRADITION based Church, not a Bible based Church." answers.yahoo.com/question/index?…The "catholic" church not Bible based? You claim to be a "christian" church, when you say that you AREN'T even based on the Bible? And you call yourselves "christians"? I think not! CAN we say DOUBLE STANDARD?
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